Biblical challenge

they reckon that drowning, once you get over the panic, is a rather painless way to go. one inhalation and thats it.

Probably the first sensible post of this thread

when I read the Bible I see symmetry with modern understanding, where most of this board sees the two as being out of sync with each other.

The easiest way to confirm this is modern history, the Bible attributes the development of forging to Tuval-Cain (Tuval-Cain represents a nation) - he lived during the birth of the Bronze Age. You can find examples of some of mans earliest bronze instruments in the Israeli Museum (dating back to 2400 BCE) - which is the period the Bible gives us for Tuval-Cains lifetime. Similarly many of the scenes depicted in the Bible have been uncovered by archeology from Solomon's stables to the burnt remains of Hazor.

This meeting of archeology & scripture is accepted by most historians (which is why you will hear many "bible scholars" suggest that the Bible is based on tales of past events passed from generation to generation), what seems much harder to relate to is the 6 day creation, the sequence of creation & the miracles depicted throughout the Bible.

So I'll explain each briefly:

6 Day Creation
Since the giving of the Torah to Moses at Mount Sinai the majority of the Jewish people have understood that the 6 days described in Genesis was from the space time reference of the Creator (or from "time zero") - although a day meant a day - it represented a different period of time to a day as we experience it from this space time reference.... But we've been over this 1000 times so I shan't dwell

Order of Creation
The easiest way to do this is to align the biblical record next to our modern understanding:

Torah | Science
1. In the beginning | There was a beginning (rather than an oscillating or steady state universe)
2. Created the heavens & the earth (earth does not mean soil) | The development of substance of the universe (energy)
3. The earth was Tohu & Bohu | All that existed were Helium & Hydrogen, from which all matter was formed
4. Let there be light | When the temperature of this universe fell below 3000K light ceased to be intermixed with matter... Photons could travel freely, whereas before they had existed in a chaotic state with free electrons where they continually collided. They could now travel freely and the uiverse witnessed the emergence of light

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Miracles
I'll be honest with you, I'm not the person to explain the miracles described in the bible as my study hasn't yet taken me there.




For me it was science and logic that helped me find faith, which is why I get annoyed at people who think the two must populate separate planes... This intellectual "faith" evolved into something much more spiritual as my learning took its course - looking for science in the Bible is like looking for science anywhere... For me it didn't explain the connection I felt with girlfriends when we made eye contact (eyes can speak a language words and logic cannot - I believe we're more than random chemical reactions, you catch a glimpse of this when you share moments with loved ones), nor does science explain the sensation of awe I felt when sitting atop a mountain in the alps as I absorbed the rock pierced skyline and total silence.... For me spirituality and rationality merged together as I explored my Jewish religion.

Actually it is explained quite easily. The 'connection' you experience with the girl confers Darwinian advantage upon your selfish genes and increases the likelihood that they will replicate, because you are then more likely to protect the mother of your children, who in turn protects your children propogating your genes.

lol repeating something you witnessed Dawkins write isn't "explaining it quite easily".

Why do lions eat their own cubs, is that confused selfish genes?

Next time you're lying with your girlfriend whether you're in bed or outside gazing up at the stars, if you're entertaining total silence you will begin to experience non-verbal communication... Your breathing slows down until both of your bodies are in perfect harmony; they begin to blend into the same rhythm.. while inhabiting this space - look into her eyes... They will speak to you.

You may describe what occurs as your "selfish genes"... I'd ask you to elaborate on that... Why doesn't the mind experience this sensation with every girl your close with? Why doesn't it experience with male friends? How can you experience this emotion with total strangers?

I think there is more to mankind than pure chemical reactions fueling survival instincts, I think there are subtleties and shades to the rich tapestry of life... When I strike up a friendship I'm not doing it to satisfy a genetic impulse, I'm doing so because I connect with that individual. In your world a parent my look after a child because her selfish genes want to survive... In my world a parent looks after her child for much deeper reasons

Are you stoned

I'm 26 andy - I can talk about my emotions without giggling

all this eyes business is well and good but why does god not want you to eat bacon?

I dont know

like I've said many times I have barely scratched the tip of the iceberg in my learnings... But that which I have read compliments my perspective.

I'm sure you can't explain every aspect of inflation theory.

christ

What a load of bollocks.

no I can't but then I have a healthy scepticism about all scientific theories at the far end of the spectrum. Evolution on the other hand is such a logical and consistent explanation of life that you have to be blind to deny it. Or you have to devise more and more complicated and unlikely scenarios to challenge it.
You say I hate religion but I don't. It's just the dogmas. I have a sense of wonder about the world just like you but I don't feel the need for a god to explain it. Just the fact that we are complex beings often beyond our own understanding seems a sufficient reason to me.

No, it's not the spiritual side of human nature (which can lead people to posit a god or gods) it's the wear a skull cap don't eat bacon wear a beard wear a veil don't eat cows shave all your hair off never cut your hair go to church on sunday or is that friday or saturday say these words don't say these words bollocks. It's bollocks and if the creator of the universe is so small minded then I for one refuse to worship him and pity anybody who gets sucked into one of these cults like you have.

lol is your life really in that good a position where you can pity others with such authority?

You're unmarried, semi-educated, spend your life on the internet or getting wasted, probably earn a similar wage to a burger flipper and more than likely live at home with your parents.... Yet between all this you find time to look down your nose at others.

awesome.

ha ha. your guess at my life is soooo very wrong. And your effortless superiority doesn't wash. If your only response is personal insults then I consider my comments proved correct.
You don't want a 'biblical debate' you want to show how your mind numbingly detailed poring over some old book makes you right. It doesn't.

good call though, such a tiresome routine

You're right I dont want a debate, this thread was a response to your endless attacks on religion... Your inability to tolerate the other side reveals your true colours... a bigot.

I was hoping this thread would help you glimpse the other sides perspective, demonstrate that there exists sense and logic behind the beliefs held by the different religious schools (just as I respect the views of atheists). Instead you predictably clambered up onto your soapbox and hurled a torrent of abuse at myself and anyone retarded enough to subscribe to a "cult".

Far greater minds than yours or mine hold deeply religious beliefs... But of course they're only following their parents, fashion, brain washers.... Your arrogance is only dwarfed by your ignorance.

ps. You live in the sticks, you're an unknown artist, you get wasted at various raves.... tell me I'm wrong? I rarely focus on the character/standing of an individual - but I find it amazing that someone who has achieved so little could assume themselves to be so big.

You're a fucking cock.

I get grief on this board everytime I post... if you dont think that post was sensitive to forks situation.. perhaps you should think twice about running your mouth.

if you didn't want a debate why did you pretend you did? Bigot? -I'm quite happy to tolerate your received wisdom, your blind faith in what others tell you is the truth. I just don't like it when organised religion starts waving it's rule book at me.

The catholic church is responsible in part for the catastrophic overpopulation of the planet with it's loopy restrictions on birth control resulting in needless suffering for countless numbers of women and children. This affects me. I don't like it and I don't agree with it and I will speak out against it whenever I get the chance. If you can't take that then I suggest you get inside and close the door and switch off the internet and do some more bible study whilst the rest of us out here in the sticks get on with real life.

And I wouldn't presume to know of your vast achievements down there in the centre of the universe that is Hendon or wherever you are now. Perhaps you could list them for me?