Iran

How do you target a militant that hides behind a family of 8?

Not at all, but we'd be at a much higher risk... For 1500 years we've tried to live in host nations and with the exception of America (who is still in her infancy) every host has tried to kill or expel us... Nothing has changed.

The Holocaust has already been forgotten and with that memory went any occidental guilt that provided a temporary security blanket for the Jews.

Why do you think those Jews were killed? They were killed because your average German believed that while he was suffering the Jew's were living in splendour.... The very same myths that resulted in the murder of 6 million people are already beginning to re-emerge.

you see anti semitism wherever you look and I guess you are 100% more likely to spot it than me but youre in danger of becoming a "is it cos ise black" stereotype yourself.
there was tremendous sympathy for the jews after WW2 but Israel is gradually squandering it.

So you're telling me the left don't push the myth that the Jews control the media and that the US is a puppet to Israel?

because I read the same books as you forks and I know they do peddle these myths.

Israel has killed around 4000 palestinians (Palestine has killed around 3000 Israeli's).... how can such tiny figures "squander the sympathy" that the holocaust provoked... what is 4,000 to 6,000,000?

why the left?
the jews don't control the media ... the americans do
and there is a much better case to be made that Israel is a puppet of the USA.
they don't give all that aid for nothing you know

I'm not questioning any of what you said.... I'm just highlighting one of the most common myths peddled by anti-Zionists.

And I mentioned the left as this is where most of the aggression is focused from... I am pollitically left wing myself - so I am very well versed on how the Palestine/Israel situation is represented.

You accused me of crying antisemitism without cause... I presented the cause to you.

so are you saying cos it not 6,000,000 it allrigh then ? 4000 is still a large no of people to kill

the lands have been in a state of war for over 50 years... Thats an incredibly low figure.

i think you have fair points here tbh but add this to the fact we are not the people we we're back then and i think you need to remember this take for instance where i live and my friends manchester has a large jewish area you've probably heard of it prestwich, a loveley area lots of nice houses big prosperous in fact my good friend Barry Almond (owner of Goodgreef) lives there i dont see the prejustice or persicution you speak off i dont see the anti-semiest's ploughing in to the village armed with their propagana trying to ridicule or persicute them in ay way shape or form apart from the obvious military action against the israili jews i dont really see where you are being prejudged or treated any diffrent but that as i see if and i'm sure you'll correct me but if you do please dont use 1500 3000 years off statements im well aware of your history point's im on about right now !!!

its the roughly the same amount as killed during the IRA conflict which has gon on longer but thats not the point



can i ask when i ask you a question, why do you never answer the question direct i aske if YOU thought it was ok that 4000 people have died because 6,000,000 died at the hands of the nazi's? which to be fair has nothing to do with the islamic conflict . or the toll of deaths in this particular war

Germany was the most liberal nation in Europe prior to World War II, while Jews were living as second class citizens in nations like Poland, German Jews were perfectly assimilated.

For centuries Jews had existed as second class citizens and in Germany they were finally given equal rights, access to universities, professional jobs, etc. Masses of Jews renounced their religion and embraced secular atheism - they didn't consider themselves Jews - they were Germans.

Throughout history this is how a demographic avoids genocide and persecution, they renounce their beliefs and accept their oppressors (when the Romans conquered England we became Roman, when then the Saxons paid us a visit we became Saxons, etc.). However this did not happen to German Jews - rather than embracing them as Germans the Nazi's accused them of being devious oppressors pretending to assimilate so that they could control Germany.

No matter what the Jew does – he cannot escape being Jewish and history has taught us that this will always end in Jewish bloodshed.

There is nothing to stop this happening in England today, the harder the Jew tries to assimilate - the more extreme the reaction he provokes from the host nation.

I clearly said it was ok.... tragic... but ok.

6,000,000 jews were killed for no reason.

4,000 Palestinians were killed in a war which both sides are engaged in.

Sorry been out all day.Real world things to do.

No i am not trying to save face joe. You ask me to google allies ignoring the camps yet i find evidence that contridicates your view.

Some poles helped jews some russian helped jews allies liberated jews and were sickned by what there saw human life was important to troops don't cheapen there loss to justifie isreal extremism.

My gran was stationed with free poles during the war and has friends who are polish jews as well they take a different view of allied intervention in the war to ours.

Were not talking about other countrys human rights records i agree with you just your not factualy wrong claim that allies ignored the concentration camps.

Also the facts are there that you received $ 91 Billion from the us yet you are still in denial to this.

How can you hope to have a debate when you have no proof to back up statements that you make.

Edited as points addressed.

This was my original point joe you have not established at all it is wrong.

.

then your no better your saying this, because in your heart of hearts you know your right , but whos to say that the opposition in there heart of hearts think their right to wipe your people out, you cant keep living in the past joe and expecting all death to be justified by the the fact that hitler's nazi's were and efficiant killing machine no one has ever since proclaimed that what happend was in any way justified it has taken the best part of the last century for Germany to live the shame down even to this day a country as far away from it's past as germany is is still guilt ridden by it's own history

James do you know who IHR are? They're a slimey collective of Holocaust deniers.... you're hardly providing credible documents to support your argument.

You can't accuse me of having a persecution complex while presenting the intellectual position of Holocaust deniers as an indication of my paranoia.

In a letter to Anthony Eden, Winston Churchill wrote: "[regarding the Jews in the death camps] there is no doubt that this is probably the greatest and most horrible single crime ever committed in the whole history of the world" (July 1944) - Churchill turned a blind eye to the events.

In 1942 Hitler announced to the rest of the world that the war in Europe would result in the complete annihilation of the Jews. Some 11,000,000 in Europe... This was witnessed by the Allies - who all conveniently turned the other way.

The British press also seemed to have an in-depth understanding of the slaughter the Jews were suffering:

"Nazis murder 700,000 Jews in Poland" - Daily Telegraph, 25 June 1942
"Travelling Gas Chambers" - Daily Telegraph, 25 June 1942
"Massacre of Jews - Over 1,000,000 have died since the war began" - The Times, 30 June 1942
"Greatest pogrom - one million Jews die" - Daily Mail. 1942

If the British press were this informed and Churchill believed it to be the great atrocity known to man - surely the allies would of dropped at least one bomb on the Vernichtungslager infrastructure.

If you would like to examine further information relating to the allies knowledge of the death camps visit this site:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/filmmore/reference/primary/index.html

It has reproduced a wall of information relating to the allied involvement in the Holocaust.

You completely misunderstood what I said, you have taken the events out of context.

The murder of 6 million Jews was unprovoked, the Jews did not chose to be the victims of Hitler’s ethnic cleansing- we were a defenceless people.

The Palestine/Israel situation is the complete opposite, both sides have chose to engage in a war over land - while the loss of life is tragic - it is not the same as genocide; both sides are armed, both sides have inflicted bitter blows upon the other, when compared to other wars that have raged for the same periods of time the death toll is miniscule.

While any loss of life is tragic, I personally think the low death toll in the Israeli/Arab conflict is admirable.

On second glance the ihr site i do not agree with alot of what they peddle it does seem anti-zionist.

Will edit my last post as you have supplied me withsome information

Thank you for your links i will read them but i take every thing with a pinch of salt.

But i do believe that the artical no matter where it is hosted does raise good points if information was so widely know as claimed by jewish writers why did the jewish population of the us not react to the news.

Also bombing of the camps would kill the jews as well as up untill 1943 -1944 it meant very long range dangerous missions over europe with limited intelligence to work with. The russian hardly had any resources either at the time. Also remember the germans were killing whole villages in france and whole areas in russia.

Even untill after the d day there was very real chance that the invasion of europe would fail.That took most of the allied resources.

I still don't think it a question still of ignoring what was happening just a case of we can do nothing till hitler was defeated also i do believe alot the issues brought up in the states are to do with hindsight.

The sad thing is though no matter how much you claim the allies ignored the jewish horror without our defeat of hitler it would of been much worse for the jews in europe.

How can you take them with a pinch of salt? They're historical documents, not retrospective opinions.

You’re starting to sound anti-Semitic James, when faced with historical fact you’re attempting to justify the opinions of those trying to prove the Holocaust was an exaggerated myth….

Jesus christ mate, you're better than this.

There was countless attempts to help European Jewry; bills were rejected by the senate, there was a vast coverage in the media, aid agencies were set up, there were supportive protests… but if you don't believe me again consult this site:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/timeline/

I find it staggering that you base your knowledge of the holocaust on those that attempt to disprove it.

So dangerous that the allies took hundreds of photo's of several camps?

The Allies often flew over Auschwitz when en-route to Warsaw to aid uprising - yet not one bomb was spared for the Jews... As for the pathetic excuse "we didn't want to harm the prisoners" - then why not take out the military infrastructure, railways, crematorium, etc.

How?

Hitler succeeded he killed the majority of European Jewry, by the time the Allies had liberated the camps the majority of those that hadn't escaped had already been killed.

The allies contributed to destruction of the Jewish people.

I hve just read the links that you posted and it does make harrowing reading.

Its not being anti-semtic.

I don't believe the us or british public given a choice would of ignored the jewish plight.

The same as some they react against any death of innocents in news.

Though at a goverment level again it proves anything is possible.

Its finding information that contradicts a lot that i have been taught and also another example of goverments putting putting politics before human life i find unsettaling and a part of me wants to not believe that there must be a reason for not bombing the train links.

Also as alot of my family served in ww2 and won medals for bravery i believe they fought to stop war crimes and stop hitler.

I must admit this has made me think and make me even more cynical of goverments than ever before.

I don't still believe that the allies were in any way in league with hitler on the matter they just did not consider it a pirority.

Still this has made me think and the entire thread has raised more questions for me than it answered.

Never thought that would happen on this message board.

You and me both

I too share your cynicism of governments, unfortunately I feel I am in the position where I have no other option but to support the state of Israel, I can oppose the actions carried out in the states name - but I could never stand against the state.

However, I also feel it my duty to educate those that blindly oppose Zionism... After this lengthy discourse I'm sure your opposition to Israel has not changed - but at least the next time we enter the debate you will have a more rounded perspective of the Middle East crisis.